Meisenhelter

Stalingrad Kämpfer

49 posts in this topic

I haven't been very active with my collecting this past year or so but I did manage to pick up just one Soldbuch/ID group.

I don't normally look for Stalingrad items but this group did catch my eye having both the soldbuch and dog tag (as well as wehrpass a 2nd copy of course)

Herbert Alber a young artillery soldier that was involved in both the attacks on Moscow and Stalingrad (with schwere artillerie abteilung 430).  I believe he likely left the Stalingrad pocket on the 19th of December (having become seriously ill with Hepatitis)

A lucky guy as his regiment was destroyed in January

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Nice Stalingrad set. I think that when the Russians counter-attacked in mid-November he was caught on the outside of the pocket, not on the inside. If you look on the Lazarett pages of the Soldbuch he went in to a Feldlazarett on 26th November and was transferred out on the 19th December 1942 by a hospital train - something that would of been impossible to achieve if he had of been on the inside of the pocket.

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17 hours ago, Kevin H said:

Nice Stalingrad set. I think that when the Russians counter-attacked in mid-November he was caught on the outside of the pocket, not on the inside. If you look on the Lazarett pages of the Soldbuch he went in to a Feldlazarett on 26th November and was transferred out on the 19th December 1942 by a hospital train - something that would of been impossible to achieve if he had of been on the inside of the pocket.

On the contrary quite possible to achieve, many wounded were flown out of the pocket and then transferred to return by train (funny my pics aren't showing up anymore? or at least I can't see them)

 

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6 hours ago, Meisenhelter said:

...(funny my pics aren't showing up anymore? or at least I can't see them)

 

They will be back shortly. The server is undergoing a service.

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8 minutes ago, Kevin H said:

It seems to be a forum-wide issue at the moment.

I already PM'd Meisenhelter, however I announced it on the Forum (via Announcements, Top Message on the Forum Index) and in the Guidelines Forum section yesterday. There is a service going on on the storage server, all attachments are being processed however the oldest first, so all older attachments are re-appearing first then the newly posted attachments. Currently the service is at 97,41%, so almost finished.

  •  

    ATTACHMENTS   01/09/2017

    Dear member - If you have any trouble with loading attachments tonight or tomorrow, do know that it is normal and not lasting. There is a service going on on the storage server which may take a few hours and in the worst scenario a day. Just so you know. Should there be any other..."

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I've had a look through the OKH/OKW listing for units lost in Stalingrad (dated 1943 & 1944) and I can't find a mention of Feldlazarett 772, not by name or the FpNr of 36134. Also in the FpNr listing directory (Feldpost 36000+ & Feldpost Database) where a unit was lost at Stalingrad it states 'gestrichen (Stalingrad)' and that isn't present with Feldlazarett 772. 

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This guy came to a Lazarett on 26.11.1942 and it clearly sais that he left the Lazarett in a Lazarett Zug (hospital train) on 19.12.1942. A week later he arrived in Bromberg.
I attach a part of the Stalingrad unit loss list where FP-No. 36134 of Lazarett 772 should be but it is not there. So like Kevin says Lazarett 772 must have been somewhere else (and the story with the Lazarett Zug supports that fact anyway).

I tend to agree with Kevin that this soldier was probably outside of Stalingrad when the Russians attacked. But to be fair - he could still have been in Stalingrad but it must have been before 26.11.1942.

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FP-No. 36134 of Lazarett 772 was only in use from March 1943, after Stalingrad, (according to your sources)

Stalingrad was completely surrounded 3 days before he arrived at 772, the ring around Stalingrad when the Russian counterattacked was 80km either side of the city and 100km behind them when they closed the ring.

On page 20 of his soldbuch it shows he was at  Frontsammelstelle 71 on 26/7.11.42 , I think unlikely over 100klm behind the lines.

His Oberleutnant and batterie fuhrer signed off in his wehrpass "angriffsschlacht und verteidigung von Stalingrad"  "18.8 - 19.12.42"  (attacking and defensive battles at Stalingrad)

Michael or Kevin can you tell me where to find this Stalingrad unit loss list. ( OKH/OKW listing for units lost in Stalingrad (dated 1943 & 1944)

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Feldlazarett 772 was allocated that FpNr at some point between March September 1942, not 1943.

The campaign pages relate to what the unit was doing, not necessarily the individual soldiers. 

 

When this was posted on the WAF Jason Mark believed Feldlazarett 772 could of been located near Stalino.

 

PM me your email address and I'll send over the full document that lists the units. 

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Are yes read that wrong, March 42 it was, but then it is recorded March 42 till Sep.42. (Still not at the time Units were destroyed at Stalingrad) 

If the campaign pages didn't relate to what the soldier was doing then it would not finish at 19.12.42. when he left 772

That Jason Mark believed Feldlazarett 772 could of been located near Stalino is neither here nor there, not saying it definitely wasn't but I believe there is more evidence to the contrary. Jason was just guessing , he has no idea were they were

 

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But is it important where 772 was? I mean it does not appear on any Stalingrad lists and since this soldier left this lazarett in a train (!) it is not possible it was in Stalingrad anyway. We don't know where it was but since it still seemed to have access to trainlines we can say for sure it was not in Stalingrad, can't we?

As far as I can tell Wehrpass Gefechtskalender never mention hospital entries or leaves or holidays etc. of individual soldiers.

 

 

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Well of course it is, and no one said (or has given any evidence) that he left 772 in a train, the only thing that this entry in his soldbuch proves is that it is the next recorded link.

I've already proved beyond any reasonable doubt in the same argument on WAF that it was entirely possible if not even more likely that many soldiers were airlifted, not back to Germany, but to a point where they can be transported back to Germany..

"As far as I can tell Wehrpass Gefechtskalender never mention hospital entries or leaves or holidays etc. of individual soldiers".

No one is talking about hospital entries or leaves or holidays of individual soldiers. in the wehrpass,  so I don't get the relevance of this comment  (I'm starting to think you're taking the piss out of me)

 

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Did he receive any front pay for the period of Stalingrad?

(I'll email the list over when I get home from work).

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23 minutes ago, Kevin H said:

Did he receive any front pay for the period of Stalingrad?

(I'll email the list over when I get home from work).

I'm not sure, Is this entry for the 1.12.42 to 10.12.42 , underlined in red front pay? (thanks looking forward to seeing the list)

 

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That's normal pay. 

With regards to the FpNr dates those show the time frame for when the number was allocated, not the start and end date.

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I knew I'd seen a list of Stalingrad related hospitals for Novemeber 1942. This is the entry in another post...

...a list of German hospitals near Stalingrad on 27.11.1942. I'll post them here as they may be of some use to someone else in the future (all spellings in German, eg. Morosowskaja, not Morozovskaya):

Armee-San.-Kp. 2/542 as an HVP in Jarmakoff (60km north of Morosowskaja);

Armee-Feldlaz. 2/542 in Nowo-Tscherkassk;

Armee-Feldlaz. 4/592 in Ssulin;

Armee-Feldlaz. 608 in Lichoj;

Armee-Feldlaz. 642 in Tormossin;

Armee-Feldlaz. 642 in Morosowskaja;

Armee-Feldlaz. 666 in Nowo-Tscherkassk;

Armee-Feldlaz. 671 in Koksofen;

Kriegslaz. 2/541 in Tazinskaja;

L.Kr.Kriegslaz. 4/541 in Shirnhoff;

Kranken-Sammelstellen in Gumrak, Pitomnik, Jarskoj, Morosowskaja, Belaja-Kalitwa and Lichaja.

 

(The post in question... Feldlazarett )

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Here is a pay entry from a Soldbuch that belonged to an artilleryman who was trapped in the pocket and flown out in January. It shows the 'normal' pay entry and then the front line pay.

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Well of course it is, and no one said (or has given any evidence) that he left 772 in a train ...

But you do see that it say: Comments on how he left the Lazarett: "Laz. Zug", do you?

What more prove do you need? Or are you saying the entry in your soldbuch is fake? :smile:

 

But oh well, I am once again involved in a discussion I don't want. If you are happy this soldier was airlifted out of Stalingrad in December 1942 then everything is fine and nobody should be bothered. I don't believe it but it is your item and you must be happy with it. So congratulations on your Stalingrad item.

 

 

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, Kevin H said:

That's normal pay. 

With regards to the FpNr dates those show the time frame for when the number was allocated, not the start and end date.

Well if the time allocated to those FpNrs are only accurate to within 6 or 7 months it doesn't give me much confidence in the time frames.

Thanks for that pic of the Frontzulage entry, though I have a few soldbuchs with guys who one EK1 and ccc and not one of those has this entry on the pay pages..

Regards to the list with army FeldLaz's at Stalingrad , don't forget 772 was a motorised field hospital and could have been anywhere at that stage of the battle.

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11 hours ago, Michael1000 said:

Well of course it is, and no one said (or has given any evidence) that he left 772 in a train ...

But you do see that it say: Comments on how he left the Lazarett: "Laz. Zug", do you?

What more prove do you need? Or are you saying the entry in your soldbuch is fake? :smile:

 

But oh well, I am once again involved in a discussion I don't want. If you are happy this soldier was airlifted out of Stalingrad in December 1942 then everything is fine and nobody should be bothered. I don't believe it but it is your item and you must be happy with it. So congratulations on your Stalingrad item.

 

 

 

 

 

Well I did not say or imply that Laz Zug entry was not correct !, I said it was the next recorded link.  As I said before I think he was airlifted out, not back to Germany but to somewhere behind the lines where he was subsequently put on a hospital train.

I wish everyone commenting about this entry could have as much confidence in the other entries in the soldbuch and wehrpass, but instead everybody seems to think they know more about his campaign in Stalingrad 70+ years later than his Oberleutnant and batterie Fuhrer 70+ years ago.

Well thanks for your congratulations, but if you don't want to be involved in the discussion why did you bother? however saying that I am happy for you to be involved.:smile: 

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3 hours ago, Meisenhelter said:

 

Thanks for that pic of the Frontzulage entry, though I have a few soldbuchs with guys who one EK1 and ccc and not one of those has this entry on the pay pages..

 

And so have I, in fact more haven't got it than have got it if I remember items in my collection correctly including another Stalingrad one I think. I was just asking in an attempt to see if there was such an entry to help add any clarification to where he was at a period of time.

The more information we can extract from the items and our files all helps build a better picture. 

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9 hours ago, Meisenhelter said:

Regards to the list with army FeldLaz's at Stalingrad , don't forget 772 was a motorised field hospital and could have been anywhere at that stage of the battle.

While that may be true, the list for the various hospitals in the Stalingrad pocket is dated for 27th November so if '772' wasn't there on the 27th then they wouldn't of been there when he was released from the hospital 22 days later as the listing is after the pocket closed so what was within stayed within and what was outside stayed outside.

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