Meisenhelter

Stalingrad Kämpfer

49 posts in this topic

12 hours ago, Kevin H said:

While that may be true, the list for the various hospitals in the Stalingrad pocket is dated for 27th November so if '772' wasn't there on the 27th then they wouldn't of been there when he was released from the hospital 22 days later as the listing is after the pocket closed so what was within stayed within and what was outside stayed outside.

That would be true if your list above for the 27th was complete, however I have already found a Feld Laz (mot) in the units list lost at Stalingrad (that you sent me) that is not listed above. 

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I think that list only shows the independent ones, not those that were a component part of a division. 

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I just think with that entry where he is at the Front collection point ( Frontsammelstelle 71 ) he must have been in the pocket, there is no way in my mind that this point would be more than 100 klm behind Stalingrad.

As well, the entry the Oberleutnant signed off on in his wehrpass. Although those entries in the wehrpass often do normally just refer to the unit operations, I think with that exact date (19.12.42, when he left 772) this particular entry does specifically refer to soldier on this occasion.

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I'm not sure where they would locate a Frontsammelstelle to be honest. I've a Soldbuch to a member of Frundsberg who was captured in Normandy but there is a Frontsammelstelle stamp that locates it (the Frontsammelstelle)  on the French/Belgian border which is some way from the front. 

I believe that the DRK volumes list two members of the Frontsammelstelle as being MIA at Stalingrad but that seems like a low number. For all we know they could of been on an admin errand to somewhere within that vicinity when the counterattack began and were caught there, much like the Italian truck drivers were. 

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4 hours ago, Kevin H said:

I'm not sure where they would locate a Frontsammelstelle to be honest. I've a Soldbuch to a member of Frundsberg who was captured in Normandy but there is a Frontsammelstelle stamp that locates it (the Frontsammelstelle)  on the French/Belgian border which is some way from the front. 

I believe that the DRK volumes list two members of the Frontsammelstelle as being MIA at Stalingrad but that seems like a low number. For all we know they could of been on an admin errand to somewhere within that vicinity when the counterattack began and were caught there, much like the Italian truck drivers were. 

I would tend to think that the Frontsammelstelle would be mobile. Anyhow Alber was at this Frontsammelstelle 71 in October (well and truly into the battle) as well as November, he unit was a front line unit (which was destroyed at Stalingrad) and there is no doubting he was involved in the battle for Stalingrad. If it wasn't for the Laz. Zug entry I doubt whether anyone would have questioned it in the first place.

Does your soldbuch with the Fronzulage pay entry have written it it that he was flown out of the pocket ?

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4 hours ago, Meisenhelter said:

Does your soldbuch with the Fronzulage pay entry have written it it that he was flown out of the pocket ?

No, he wasn't injured so there is no indication for why he was flown out when he was. The WP has the usual inscription that the original was lost with the 6.Armee.

Don't get me wrong, it is a nice Stalingrad related set and I'm not doubting whether he was involved in the battle at some stage of it but the doubt is with his location after the pocket closed. And whether anyone would of questioned it if the Laz.Zug entry wasn't there is irrelevant. It is there and it leads us down the path to him very probably being outside the pocket when it closed.

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8 hours ago, Kevin H said:

 And whether anyone would of questioned it if the Laz.Zug entry wasn't there is irrelevant. It is there and it leads us down the path to him very probably being outside the pocket when it closed.

Well with the documentary I quoted on the veteran being interviewed (in the similar discussion on WAF) I think shows that it is not "very probable" that he was on the outside of the pocket.

Anyhow I feel this discussion will just go round in circles unless some other concrete information turns up, and as I say I will go by what his entry in the wehrpass says until such information confirms otherwise.

 

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Kevin thanks again for those unit loss lists and we may have differing viewpoints but I have learned a little and that's the fun of it all:smile:

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18 hours ago, Meisenhelter said:

......Anyhow I feel this discussion will just go round in circles unless some other concrete information turns up...

 

I can only agree. But what I will say is this attached list of medical units comes from that 'Verluste Stalingrad' OKH/OKW document and lists all the medical units lost in the pocket. Why some of the ones on Jason's list aren't mentioned I obviously can't say as I don't know where those details came from but maybe they were disbanded or absorbed or maybe the date is wrong by a month or even 2 weeks, but either way this official list makes no mention of Feldlazarett 772 as being lost in the pocket. And to add a little extra weight to that is that in the DRK MIA volumes all of the medical units on the attached list have many men listed as MIA at Stalingrad. The entry in those volumes for '772' only lists a handful of men as MIA and none of them are before November 1944 which you would expect from a unit behind the front and not trapped in a pocket or overrun until late in the war. 

I have found mention of Feldlazarett 772 on the Forum der Wehrmacht as being in Stalino in mid-September 1942 but unfortunately no further mention of it until mid-1943. However, this biographical information for a Luftwaffe soldier (https://alex1969.jimdo.com/in-erinnerung-an/otto-münzing/) mentions that in August 1943 he was injured near Taganrog (ironically, his unit (Luftwaffen-Feld-Division 15) was a component of a reformed 6.Armee) and the first medical unit he went to was Feldlazarett 772 which would add weight to it being in Stalino as the two locations are relatively close and would be his first stop in the Lazarett system. It would be extremely coincidental if Feldlazarett 772 was located in Stalno in September 1942, moved up to Stalingrad and then found itself destroyed, reformed and back in Stalino again 8 months later. What also makes Stalino a good place for a Feldlazarett to stay is that it has a good rail network. The attached Lage OST map is from 21st August 1943 so is close to when the Luftwaffe soldier was wounded.

Your man is listed in his SB as being admitted in to '772' on 27th November 1942. If '772' was located in Stalino then that would explain why he was outside the pocket as he fell ill and he was sent there before the Russian counter-offensive with the journey taking 8 or so days - I've no idea how long it would of taken to travel 300 miles in a Russian winter. Just because the Lazarett entry states the date of 27th November that isn't necessarily his actual date of entry. I have seen it where a soldier was admitted days before the actual date in his Soldbuch and they just used the date the admin was done as the first date. If that is the case he could of been there on the 23rd for example with him leaving the Stalingrad area on the 16. 17 or 18th November to be transported to Stalino.

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19 hours ago, Meisenhelter said:

Kevin thanks again for those unit loss lists and we may have differing viewpoints but I have learned a little and that's the fun of it all:smile:

It is always good to dissect items, it can do nothing but help build the mans story, or make it clearer.

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10 hours ago, Kevin H said:

I can only agree. But what I will say is this attached list of medical units comes from that 'Verluste Stalingrad' OKH/OKW document and lists all the medical units lost in the pocket. Why some of the ones on Jason's list aren't mentioned I obviously can't say as I don't know where those details came from but maybe they were disbanded or absorbed or maybe the date is wrong by a month or even 2 weeks, but either way this official list makes no mention of Feldlazarett 772 as being lost in the pocket. And to add a little extra weight to that is that in the DRK MIA volumes all of the medical units on the attached list have many men listed as MIA at Stalingrad. The entry in those volumes for '772' only lists a handful of men as MIA and none of them are before November 1944 which you would expect from a unit behind the front and not trapped in a pocket or overrun until late in the war. 

I have found mention of Feldlazarett 772 on the Forum der Wehrmacht as being in Stalino in mid-September 1942 but unfortunately no further mention of it until mid-1943. However, this biographical information for a Luftwaffe soldier (https://alex1969.jimdo.com/in-erinnerung-an/otto-münzing/) mentions that in August 1943 he was injured near Taganrog (ironically, his unit (Luftwaffen-Feld-Division 15) was a component of a reformed 6.Armee) and the first medical unit he went to was Feldlazarett 772 which would add weight to it being in Stalino as the two locations are relatively close and would be his first stop in the Lazarett system. It would be extremely coincidental if Feldlazarett 772 was located in Stalno in September 1942, moved up to Stalingrad and then found itself destroyed, reformed and back in Stalino again 8 months later. What also makes Stalino a good place for a Feldlazarett to stay is that it has a good rail network. The attached Lage OST map is from 21st August 1943 so is close to when the Luftwaffe soldier was wounded.

Your man is listed in his SB as being admitted in to '772' on 27th November 1942. If '772' was located in Stalino then that would explain why he was outside the pocket as he fell ill and he was sent there before the Russian counter-offensive with the journey taking 8 or so days - I've no idea how long it would of taken to travel 300 miles in a Russian winter. Just because the Lazarett entry states the date of 27th November that isn't necessarily his actual date of entry. I have seen it where a soldier was admitted days before the actual date in his Soldbuch and they just used the date the admin was done as the first date. If that is the case he could of been there on the 23rd for example with him leaving the Stalingrad area on the 16. 17 or 18th November to be transported to Stalino.

The “fact” that these lists have differences certainly does not give me a great deal of confidence in them (although they must of course be taken solidly into consideration)

 

“The entry in those volumes for '772' only lists a handful of men as MIA and none of them are before November 1944”

Maybe  772 was subordinate to one of those listed (just as you say that some of those other Laz. don’t show on another list possibly because they might be subordinate to another unit)

 

If 772 was at Stalino in mid September 42 I would think it quite likely it would be further on later in the battle being a mobile hospital.

If Stalino has good access to Railway and was so far behind the lines I’m sure they would put a proper Armee-Feld lazarette there, as there were Armee-Feld lazarette’s  located in Stalingrad, why would they use a small mobile unit for Stalino?

 

“It would be extremely coincidental if Feldlazarett 772 was located in Stalno in September 1942, moved up to Stalingrad and then found itself destroyed, reformed and back in Stalino again 8 months later.”

Yes, but it would be located where they need it, I would think it was just as coincidental (if not more so) that it was there for a whole 8 month period being a smaller mobile unit.

 

“Just because the Lazarett entry states the date of 27th November that isn't necessarily his actual date of entry. I have seen it where a soldier was admitted days before the actual date in his Soldbuch and they just used the date the admin was done”

I would think that possibly correct as well, but he has a date in his soldbuch at Frontsammelstelle 71 on the 26/7.11.42.  I would tend to think this would be accurate (thinking it would be done while there which would likely be a short period) and the key word being Front not some 300miles behind the lines.

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5 hours ago, Meisenhelter said:

...

If 772 was at Stalino in mid September 42 I would think it quite likely it would be further on later in the battle being a mobile hospital.

If Stalino has good access to Railway and was so far behind the lines I’m sure they would put a proper Armee-Feld lazarette there, as there were Armee-Feld lazarette’s  located in Stalingrad, why would they use a small mobile unit for Stalino?

“It would be extremely coincidental if Feldlazarett 772 was located in Stalno in September 1942, moved up to Stalingrad and then found itself destroyed, reformed and back in Stalino again 8 months later.”

 

Yes, but it would be located where they need it, I would think it was just as coincidental (if not more so) that it was there for a whole 8 month period being a smaller mobile unit.

 

According to Tessin, Feldlazarett 772 was an Armee level unit (i.e. Armee-Feldlazarett 772) even if it states motorised on the stamped notation.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Sanitaets.htm

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I would agree that it is the same unit but still doesn't mean he was in the pocket. For all we know that unit's stamp in the Soldbuch (the blue one with the November date written in) could of been stamped in to the SB at some point by that unit but left blank and actually had the date entered by the hospital in Stalino to confirm he had left the Stalingrad area and was no longer within it and came under someone else's responsibility.

 

But as you said earlier, round and round in circles we go. Unless anyone else can contribute in this good natured discussion then I think it's fair to say we will have to agree to disagree on this matter.

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3 hours ago, Kevin H said:

I would agree that it is the same unit but still doesn't mean he was in the pocket. For all we know that unit's stamp in the Soldbuch (the blue one with the November date written in) could of been stamped in to the SB at some point by that unit but left blank and actually had the date entered by the hospital in Stalino to confirm he had left the Stalingrad area and was no longer within it and came under someone else's responsibility.

 

But as you said earlier, round and round in circles we go. Unless anyone else can contribute in this good natured discussion then I think it's fair to say we will have to agree to disagree on this matter.

Well it's enough proof for me

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I have a Soldbuch and Wehrpass to a Stabsarzt who served with Fledlazarette (mot) 179 of the 79th ID. Supposedly only the divisional staff was flown out and escaped captivity, but this somewhat historically incorrect. The divisional lazarette escaped the encirclement, and eventually ended up in the area of Novocherkassk. Meanwhile at Stalino 79th soldiers returning from leave, those returning fit from wounds, and replacements were hastily thrown together with the escaped staff to form a polyglot unit of the same number and sent to the Kuban bridgehead. 

Just saying that an Army level Lazarette such as the 772nd would iikely been been even further back in the rear area than one to a division. 

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6 hours ago, GR 109 said:

 

Just saying that an Army level Lazarette such as the 772nd would iikely been been even further back in the rear area than one to a division. 

What about all these Army level lazarettes quoted earlier in this discussion ?

I knew I'd seen a list of Stalingrad related hospitals for Novemeber 1942. This is the entry in another post...

...a list of German hospitals near Stalingrad on 27.11.1942. I'll post them here as they may be of some use to someone else in the future (all spellings in German, eg. Morosowskaja, not Morozovskaya):

Armee-San.-Kp. 2/542 as an HVP in Jarmakoff (60km north of Morosowskaja);

Armee-Feldlaz. 2/542 in Nowo-Tscherkassk;

Armee-Feldlaz. 4/592 in Ssulin;

Armee-Feldlaz. 608 in Lichoj;

Armee-Feldlaz. 642 in Tormossin;

Armee-Feldlaz. 642 in Morosowskaja;

Armee-Feldlaz. 666 in Nowo-Tscherkassk;

Armee-Feldlaz. 671 in Koksofen;

Kriegslaz. 2/541 in Tazinskaja;

L.Kr.Kriegslaz. 4/541 in Shirnhoff;

Kranken-Sammelstellen in Gumrak, Pitomnik, Jarskoj, Morosowskaja, Belaja-Kalitwa and Lichaja.

 

 

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Actually a good read and discussion thread on the units involved. That said your man certainly could have been evacuated by air.

It would seem probable that Feldlazarette (mot) 179 would have been closer to the city than 772. One could even make a much stronger case for the divisional level Feldlazarettes's not escaping, but from the SB/WP set I have just such an example. Interesting to surmise then how 179 as a divisional level unit was then able to escape the initial encirclement. Do no rule out the possibility that 772, or some part of it had not as well. To include other divisional elements to include the 71st ID however likely, or unlikely. Another good example of divisional elements escaping the encirclement is written about at length in the book, "Blood Red Snow".

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Good point Bart. I had also asked Jason some time back on the WAF about the Feldlazarette 179 question. He related pretty much the same to me as to Meisenhelter. That it was very chaotic during the encirclement with units either escaping in time, or becoming trapped. Imho, for this very reason the confusing situation during the Soviet breakthrough into the 6th Army rear areas makes it difficult to trace the tactical movements of escaping units and personnel.  

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14 hours ago, Bart V. said:

As you already from the start of the thread made up your mind and only were looking for confirmation. That neither on WAF or on this Forum came. Just accept it as a 50 / 50 chance "may have been". Either way he still fought there, saw hell and survived. You already have such a great Soldbuch there. Whether he was there during the encirclement is just the question, accept it as a mystery that is currently not solved and enjoy the hunt to gain more intel. That is also what the hobby is about. It is just that, does it really matter to argue about? He without doubt saw hell and came back, he saw one of the worst places where you could have been at that time. If Jason Mark can't tell a 100% for sure I doubt any of us can. He is the Stalingrad specialist with decades of experience, research, written books, intel from veterans and so on.. 

Yes you hit the nail on the head there Bart.

I never really looked for Stalingrad items because I remember the very first time I watched World at War (about 30 years ago) Operation Barbarossa I was so interested /infatuated by the show and couldn’t wait to see the next campaign of Stalingrad.

Then watching that episode it started off alright and just went downhill and left me feeling miserable for all those guys and what they went through.  It’s one thing to think of soldiers fighting to the death heroically and another to think of them starving for prolonged periods and being exposed to constant life and death combat, freezing to death , sick, hungry, no ammunition, then if they're really unlucky die in the Siberian mines.

I did read one Stalingrad book sometime back by V.E.Tarrant, however now I have this group it has sparked my interest, and next on the list, one or two of Jason’s books for sure.

 

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10 minutes ago, Meisenhelter said:

 

I did read one Stalingrad book sometime back by V.E.Tarrant, however now I have this group it has sparked my interest, and next on the list, one or two of Jason’s books for sure.

 

 

Well, now is the time as he has a 25% discount sale on until the end of January for all of his books. If you get An Infantryman in Stalingrad by Adelbert Holl (available on his site), there is also a sequel to it called After Stalingrad: Seven Years As A Soviet Prisoner of War and is published by Pen & Sword.

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On 18/01/2017 at 8:31 PM, Bart V. said:

Whether he was there during the encirclement is just the question, accept it as a mystery that is currently not solved and enjoy the hunt to gain more intel. That is also what the hobby is about. It is just that, does it really matter to argue about? He without doubt saw hell and came back, he saw one of the worst places where you could have been at that time. If Jason Mark can't tell a 100% for sure I doubt any of us can. He is the Stalingrad specialist with decades of experience, research, written books, intel from veterans and so on.. 

From where I sit really you do have a very desirable set of documents to a soldier who was without doubt a participant of the decisive battle at Stalingrad, that in itself is quite something which does warrant serious reflection.

As somone who spends a great deal of time researching Luftwaffe document sets, there are frequently times when the subject of the documents cannot be directly attributed to a particular operation, battle or action, even though you know he was involved with the unit itself.  I know it is frustrating however, it is domething which comes with the territory.  In this case, it will probably never be ascertained with total certaintly whether he was encircled in the Kessel or not.  

That said, your documents did belong to a soldier involved in one of not the most, significant battle on the entire Eastern Front, that in itself is enough for it to be a worthy addition to any collection. 

Regards Richard.

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