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Hello all, this is my my first post and mean it in the spirit of learning more:  a question for EricS or anyone who can answer me.

It has been said for awhile(other web sites) this is an Eddic saying (taken from the Edda). I wonder if anyone has ever checked out this assertion. Who knows where in the Edda this is said? Who is supposed to have said it? Any specific form of the Eddas?

 

I ask for many reasons, firstly, I want it to be an Eddic saying on the wooden Tellers and want to be able to prove it. And secondly, sometimes we in the collecting communities repeat things without ever having any evidence. Thirdly, I want to get a published Eddic book and read what such a saying was meant in full context.   

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Hi,

 

 

Not sure i understand your message correctly, but you want to read the Edda?

 

In English it is available online:

 

The Poetic Edda - http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/

 

The Prose Edda - http://www.runatyrkindred.com/media/pdf/The_Prose_Edda.pdf

 

Not sure if these are what you want or if you want or need a German translation?

 

Regarding the saying on the plate: about every internetsite that talks about these wooden plates, quotes the same saying and says it is from the Edda, but nowhere is this explained as to where in the Edda it can be found. (no one cared to investigate?)

 

I don't claim to be an expert on this matter (far from!) but a while ago searched a bit myself and think it's a free interpretation of the Hávamál / Hovamol poem of the Poetic Edda. (see also here for a German translation of this poem: http://wikingerzeit.de/Deutsch/Uber_uns/Havamal/havamal.html

 

2. Heil den Gebern! Ein Gast tritt ein. Sagt, wo er sitzen soll! Nicht behaglch hat’s, wer auf dem Holz sein Glück versuchen soll.

 

Especially the first two sentences are in line and can be interpreted with your plate i suppose. So, lets say the saying is from the Edda? What does this mean? In my humble opinion that it is "just" a cultural item with a very loose link to the Edda. Nice in it's own right but not as spectacular as some make the community believe and definately not a period SS item as some wish that every bread plate is.

 

 

Regarding bread plates in general: the past few years these have become quite infamous for many collectors, as some people have foolishly started to shout and claim that everything made of wood is pure gold and related to the SS. The made up background stories and by one particular criminal made up myth surrounding these plates has damaged the original pieces very badly and imo made it nearly impossible to distinguish good from bad. Also this sick individual made many reproductions and sold hundreds of items as something they are not. Personnally i would never buy one of these plates anymore as an orignal WOII item, as they have all become too questionable and rather spent my money on someting i know at least for sure that it is original. Wood items are also too easy to fake and these kind of items have been around much much longer than the period of WWII, making it even harder to dinstuish period items from much older similar items. Maybe i misread your message and if so, my excuses, i type this in general and not towards you or your collectible, but you speak of the collecting community and that you want to prove things? If you are a member of the WAF forums look for the now closed "Cultural items" thread. It is over 200 pages long but contains almost equally many pages on which these kind of items are discussed and the outcome is not always good. The topic sure helps to make up your mind about these plates (and unfortunately not in a good way).

 

Good luck with your plate and i hope it turns out for you to be what you hope it is.

 

best regards,

Gaston

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Hello Gaston, thanks for the quick reply.

I dont own a plate with this saying on it, but was interested in the written word (sayings) source.

You are probably correct as to the saying coming from the Havamal (as you showed)...but bring up the other awkward problem with German wood work sayings:namely that they altered the sayings into shortened versions...almost like a short-hand script or slang type usage . This makes it rather hard to know with certitude.

 

As for the problems inherit in this area of collecting: I know exactly what(and who) you are describing. He single handedly has brought  vast areas of collecting into sad decline.

 

 

Finally that problematic person aside,  I also agree with you that too many collectors are much to quick to assume an "eddic quote" or a runic look proves an SS pedigree.  While in actuality, it can be a possibility to have had an SS connection,  it is not "a sure thing."

I collect with that understanding.

thanks again,

Ketzer

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It's a plate with the "Hail to the guest who comes to us" we know was used by the SS as this saying is in the in the album documenting a cross-section of the work of the Camp Buchenwald workshops in which prisoners had to make quality craft items for the SS. The album produced on behalf of the SS prisoners of the photo department is to be understood as a kind product catalog.

 

Also some of these plates also have a clear connection to the Edda as 'Edda' is carved on the plate also. I think one of our members, Erich S our forum moderator has one such example?

 

So this plate/script could well have been used by an SS family but then it was likely a popular saying for other NS (non-SS) families to have as well, who knows.  So how does one describe such a thing? I think its fair to describe as NS/SS period if only based on the documented evidence from Buchenwald but to describe as purely SS is a stretch of the imagination without family provenance and such like.

 

The SS liked this type of craft, published example documents such as the Buchenwald SS Album and the SS publication from Weitzel shows us this with the guide on how to set up the SS Family corner with Julleuchter, family bread plates and so on.

 

Photo: Property of the Archive Buchenwald Memorial Collection

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As an aside, here's a photo in my collection with an SS Wedding plate. These craft items were clearly important to the SS.

 

SS-Obergruppenführer Fritz Weitzel describes the gifting of an SS Wedding Plate in his book “The Celebrations In The Life Of The SS Family;

 

"A special friend from the ranks of the SS should sit opposite the couple. Just before the meal or during its earlier part he talks to the couple about the value and regard the State and the SS have for the family and the importance of the preservation of the Folk. He should talk about the SS motto My Honour Is Loyalty, which now becomes also the motto for the woman. He should point out that as long as the couple keeps to the SS laws and do their duty, the SS will protect them.He then accepts the woman into the ranks of the SS and hands the couple a small gift. This could be a book or a picture.He also gives them a wooden plate holding some bread and salt, and two earthenware mugs. These gifts shall remind them to keep to a simple and clean life style. The words of the speaker should end with a Sieg Heil! for The Leader and the newly weds.Different groups of the SS community can help with the cooking of the food, providing of music, decorating of rooms, and so on. The groups range from the Hitler Youth to the SS Band and the Women’s Group.”

 

 

 

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Hi Steve,

 

Many thanks for this picture, it's a very good example of such a plate in use.

 

While you are correct about the SS having a strong feeling for wooden items, it's in my opinion not correct to call all wooden items original SS or even NS/SS items. This whole area of cultural collecting has been badly damaged (see above and im sure you have read the monstruous now closed cultural topic on WAF). These items are so very interesting, but also very easy to confuse.

 

So this plate/script could well have been used by an SS family but then it was likely a popular saying for other NS (non-SS) families to have as well, who knows.  So how does one describe such a thing? I think its fair to describe as NS/SS period if only based on the documented evidence from Buchenwald but to describe as purely SS is a stretch of the imagination without family provenance and such like.

 

 

Yes the saying COULD be used by the SS, maybe even by other NS organisations, but imo this can impossible be proven for any anonymous object. These plates, candleholders, wooden chests and other objects, have been in use long before the SS was instituted. It's not easy to describe all cultural plates under one name, but the name SS or NS/SS does not cover the collectingarea in my opinion. If an item has documented or photographic SS or NS/SS proven evidence that's a whole other story, but anonymous plates are very hard to prove.

 

 

best regards,

Gaston

 

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Hi Gaston,

 

I completely agree with you, it's not correct to call all wooden items original SS or even NS/SS items and as you say anonymous plates and so on are hard to prove and certain pieces can be discussed until the cows come home and you will never get any proof.

 

I take your point about calling this particular plate an SS/NS plate, perhaps you are thinking I said that just because of the script. My thoughts were along the lines if we consider a plate of this type to period 1933-1945, by calling it NS/SS I'm making a similar point to one of yours, in that we can't precisely call it an SS plate, only that it could be because we know its a script used by the SS.

 

This is an art and craft area of collecting and so its a form that was evolving even in the period, so yes, no doubt exactly similar (in the case of simple Christian motif plates) and similar art and craft existed before and after the TR. With any craft of this type certain symbols, styles, sayings and materials come into fashion and existing designs and forms develop.

 

By it's nature this area is very confusing and challenging, it's a lot fun for many folks who like it, it's also relatively inexpensive. We can't nail down items with proof as we do with medals and such like but we know these things we made and used and in many cases we can assess them in terms of age on such factors as materials, wear, symbolism (pagan, Christian, folk art etc), scripts and so on. Sometimes they are less anonymous and can have makers, signatures and occasionally they are also dated and so giving more to consider.

 

Here's a plate that can be very confusing, in my judgment is it from the TR period, it tells me enough to be comfortable with believing it is period but it is confusing mix of symbolism and in some respects reflects the periods mix of Nazism (Swastika), Christianity(Script) and Paganism(Rune). (Certainly an odd mix to fake and sell if one was to consider it being a fantasy/fake!)

 

One more, in this case its telling us what it is, just have to make a judgement on whether it's telling us the truth. Looks good to me.

 

Best regards,

Steve

 

 

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Back to Edda plates, I forgot I had this one in the cupboard, a good piece of oak weighing in at, 2.5 lbs! "Heil dem Gast...." with "Edda"

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Hi,

 

This topic is becoming very interesting. There are some very nice examples of plates in this topic.

 

Here's a plate that can be very confusing, in my judgment is it from the TR period, it tells me enough to be comfortable with believing it is period but it is confusing mix of symbolism and in some respects reflects the periods mix of Nazism (Swastika), Christianity(Script) and Paganism(Rune). (Certainly an odd mix to fake and sell if one was to consider it being a fantasy/fake!)

 

 

Steve, your deduction of the background of this plate might be spot on. It sure looks period and has indeed a mixture of several period characteristics. Sometimes we have in current times a hard time understanding certain backgrounds of items from the past. When seeing your picture i remembered a small badge i got years ago. Im not saying your plate is from the German (1930's) Kirchenbewegung Deutsche Christen, but it might illustrate how back in the day symbols we may not expect together today were used by the most diverse period organisations. For comparrison i placed them both next to eachother, the use of a swastika and a Christian cross may not be as strange as it may look at first sight. Your plate sure looks period and im with you that the use of these symbols together does not seem like somethng a modern faker would choose as it would be too complicated to sell or explain to most collectors.

 

best regards,

Gaston

 

 

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Hi Gerome,

 

Whenever i see a reply posted by you i know there will be some quality items posted, and this is no exception. That first photo looks again very well thought out and shows all top quality items.

 

The second plate (Reichsnährstand) i think i remember from WAF? Im not completely sure but think i've seen it before. To be honest im not a big fan of it.

 

best regards,

Gaston

 

 

 

 

 

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hello
thank you for the compliments
yes I know all messages that are been against this dish, and I think the good
it is always very difficult to say whether good or bad on these items NS culture.
this kind of article is to craft the most unique part, and it was not as Allach aps or the marking and design we can whether good or not.
I pay very inexpensive and perfectly decorated my living room if people have doubts too bad I'm not trying to prove whether good or not so I will not waste my time because without papers officile person could not be right or wrong
me I like it
may be that Steve and others will give their opinions

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Hi,

 

This topic is becoming very interesting. There are some very nice examples of plates in this topic.

 

 

 

 

 

Steve, your deduction of the background of this plate might be spot on. It sure looks period and has indeed a mixture of several period characteristics. Sometimes we have in current times a hard time understanding certain backgrounds of items from the past. When seeing your picture i remembered a small badge i got years ago. Im not saying your plate is from the German (1930's) Kirchenbewegung Deutsche Christen, but it might illustrate how back in the day symbols we may not expect together today were used by the most diverse period organisations. For comparrison i placed them both next to eachother, the use of a swastika and a Christian cross may not be as strange as it may look at first sight. Your plate sure looks period and im with you that the use of these symbols together does not seem like somethng a modern faker would choose as it would be too complicated to sell or explain to most collectors.

 

best regards,

Gaston

 

Gaston,

 

Thanks for showing that nice badge, a great addition to the thread. 

 

I have seen such pieces, you're right, not that strange if you have seen these type of things but in the area of the bread plates its the first time I've seen a rune in with the  swastika and Christian saying. Trying to understand the past is a big part of working out what these types of cultural items were all about.

 

Even the SS weren't very successful in converting the members to Paganism, the mix of symbols may have sat more comfortably together than we would might first expect.

 

Best regards,

Steve

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hello

thank you for the compliments

yes I know all messages that are been against this dish, and I think the good

it is always very difficult to say whether good or bad on these items NS culture.

this kind of article is to craft the most unique part, and it was not as Allach aps or the marking and design we can whether good or not.

I pay very inexpensive and perfectly decorated my living room if people have doubts too bad I'm not trying to prove whether good or not so I will not waste my time because without papers officile person could not be right or wrong

me I like it

may be that Steve and others will give their opinions

Gerome,

 

Some lovely items there.

 

I remember the plate too, from WAF. Bought in auction, presented and sold on WAF. It was called under suspicion and hotly debated and if I recall correctly the crux of the matter being that it was thought to have been modified/re-carved post auction by its first post auction owner. Personally from viewing all the same pictures everyone had the opportunity to view,  I don't think think that was the case. Without reading it all over again for precise details I remember my thoughts were the plate had all the carving in all the pictures and so based on the photographs I don't think it was re-carved.

 

Pictures often don't show all the details well, the lighting angles make a big difference and lighting plates well in photography is not that easy without spending time on the images. I'm a photographer and I don't spend much time on photography on my own items for myself, a lot more detail would be revealed with some effort.  Whether it was re-carved or not was one issue, the other being whether its a period item or not and with this plate in such fine condition that's not easy from viewing on a forum. It would really need to be inspected and even then, it looks to be in such good shape you may never be able to get any good feeling of age.

 

Still, being in such good shape and original to the period is not impossible.Just open the door of an oak cupboard or chest that's 50 or a 100 years old the interior will look completely new.

 

It would just have to been kept in a cupboard in the house all the time. Most plates I have give some indication of age, most are not even round anymore, evidence of hanging on walls a long time, where the dust/dirt builds up and modifies the surface colour and so on can be seen. In fact let me take the doors off a period Deutsches Heimatwerk Truhen-Anricht 91 and you can see the inside and outside to illustrate what I mean. Inside looks like new relative to the outside.

 

It's sort of interesting, let's assume for a moment this plate is newish, it goes to show that if a modern plate were to be made and claimed to be TR period it would would be called out as modern by most! So why bother making one that looks like new! Faking convincing age must be a lot more work. I've seen one or two that look like they have been made to look old, but honestly not very convincing. It's a hell of a lot of work to clean up an old poor condition plate to even get it allowed in the house by the girlfriend!

 

Best regards,

Steve

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Here's another one, a large piece in linden wood, a war plate from the Island of Norderney.

 

It tells us its from 1941 so again we just have to believe it or not. I like it.

 

Julleuchter for size comparison.

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Just thought of another NS plate with Christian message, auction group of Reichsnährstand related material.

 

Photo © Hermann Historica

 

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Here's a monster of a plate in one solid piece of oak, 0.5 metres in diameter!

 

I bought this from a family along with a HJ Landjahr Rune plate though this one has nothing really precise to tell us its time frame or what it is. The oak leaf wreath is very similar to that on the 1933 Gau Munchen badge with its oak leaves with 5 bands, the oak leaf design in the center might suggest a military related achievement grade, as they often do, for example take the oak leaf grading system on the SS Shooting badge. Who knows what it is for but an impressive piece of well carved oak that must have been important to someone at some point.

 

It had suffered some water damage so I had to put some new polish on it. Julleuchter for size comparison.

 

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hello Steve
I first want to thank you for your website NS-kunst is a reference on the subject, and your photos are all beauties
it will never be obvious whether the plate is age or not but for me it is age, imagine that it is a copy I think we would have more for sale.
I is not seen another but I can not seem to find the photo.
work is superb very end, quite clear patina and wooden oak.

you have an astonishing collection thank you for sharing with us your knowledge and Articles

RNS and cultural objects NS / SS are related

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it very base
the sculpture is beautiful
I attached a picture of my badge to show your subject is true that oak leaves are resembling
what you add polish to go on the plate?
thank you

 

 

 

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Gerome,

 

Nice badges!

 

I'm glad you like my home site, more a collection of information than knowledge but thanks for the kind words.

 

The 'polish' is natural shellac, its not a polish like a wax but its often called polish, but its a natural polymer just as would have been used in the times these items were made. Synthetic polymers were very new technology back then, not in wide use. Shellac is the traditional finish. 

 

It's nice to leave plates as they are if presentable. Many have the shellac finish but sometimes oak is just left natural and waxed. I doubt your plate ever had any shellac. Probably just beeswax.

 

Shellac, useful stuff, you'll find it on the stocks of AK-47's and as food additive E904!

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