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Rüdiger L.

Identifying cast copies - St&L OLS / Oaks

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Hi friends,

it´s been quiet here the last days, for sure reason will be that no one got new pieces to show.
As my new purchases are still on the way i would like to fill the gap with a "study and learn" thread .

You all now i was screwed by a very good cast copy on my OLS. That this will not happen to you i´d like to make a small excourse for identyfying these copies.


Very early S&L OL and OLS are always die struck pieces, that means that a piece of silver or tombak is layed between two dies (avers and reverse) and then the dies are pushed together with a very high pressure. The result is a piece with very crispy details and a wonderful clean surface.

Die casting is a process were the usually zinc is made liquid and is injected/molded into a form. With a little bit experience every one can make such a form ( of special sand) from an original piece.
The better the form and the rework of the piece is done, the harder you can identify these on sellers pics.

But there are a few things that can make us sure NOT to buy one of those crappy pieces.

The pics from the originals belong to a dutch collector friend who is absent since a long time. I´ll link him to this thread and i am sure he don´t mind i used them :wink: 


Let´s have a look at the surface of the shown OLS. Left an original one by S&L and right my casted copy.
The surface is on the original pieces very clean, without any rough bumps. Especially on the swords handles and blade the difference is very good to see.

- The outer edges are normally nicely rounded while on the copy the edges are not really round, partly very pointed.

- The avers edges of the veins are originally very small while the copied edges are slightly wider.

- The swords on the S&L one are made as single piece and have to be soldered to the OL - the copy OLS are one piece that tries to show bad soldered swords. The edges of the OL reverse, where the swords are soldered on, are very sharp ... just have a look at the copy.....what a difference.

- The 800 mark on the copy is poorly made and not stamped...looks like it´s been made with a small chisel.

- Ususally the finish is completely missing on the copies, these shall look like a patinated one. On most originals the silver finish is still very good.



I can only recommend that you always ask for better pics to be sure what you get. Most of the points i told are hardly to see on sellers pics. I know sometimes you have to be fast but then you´ll come in danger to loose your money. I burned 75€


I hope this little excourse is helpful for you and can help to save some money and makes the collecting world a little bit safer.

Thanks for looking and interest, friends  :squint: 



Here are the comparing pics - left original,right copy

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Close up of the cast copy, swords are not soldered on --> one piece

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Typical sellers pic - here ebay, so beware and be always careful, piece looks really convincing here !!!!!

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Good work Rudiger!!

 We have seen a few cast copies of Oaks and Oaks & Swords in the past, i wonder if they are all the same, same flaws etc.???

  -Nigel

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Thanks Nigel,

 

well these copies haven´t been studied by me so i don´t know.

But for sure this version here, with the small missing part of the blade, has been seen before. Mathijs knows this version, too.

 

It could be a little housemade series by a professional faker  :evil:

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But for sure this version here, with the small missing part of the blade, has been seen before. Mathijs knows this version, too.

 

Sadly I do ... I once was fooled by a very well made cast-copy ... seeing yours, it all came back and I traced the pictures ( luckily !!! ).

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And from the same source, I also got these oaks .... after some digging they were also identified as cast-copy.

One has to admit, they look damn well made .... but not the real deal though.

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Thanks Mathijs, for the additional pics  :thumbup:

 

The OL are really very hard to identify as casted piece.

 

I can only say that they look all very convincing, even in my display at home they look very well. We have to be very careful with buying because you need extremely good and sharp pics. 

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Looking at the pics of the cast pieces, it really is difficult to tell they are cast, maybe in hand they are easier to identify?? One thing i did notice was the silver finish, never seems as nice on the cast pieces, when compared with the real deal!!

 -Nigel

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Nigel,

 

i can only tell as an own experience.....in hand they still look great !!!!!

That´s the reason why they still are in my display. You can only judge them correct on high res pics IMO.

 

Look here...a part of my display....they look good ( but are only a gapfiller )  :whistling: 

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Hi Rudiger,

 

That's a great comparison. I really needed to see something like this as I haven't entered the OLS buying yet because unless I buy from someone I know I'm scared to look on e-bay. Take a look at one more thing I noticed on your obverse picture comparison. I could be wrong but (I don't know what to call it) on the ends of the swords hilt there are what looks like almost perfect circles. But if you look at the cast copy, they are not close to being circles. Less refined. What do you think?

 

Regards,

Rudy

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Hi Rudy,

 

great to see you here as well, buddy :thumbup:

 

I know what you mean and indeed it´s another point that leads to a casted copy. On good S&L OLS these are refined way better.

 

Yesterday i received (finally) my first good OLS and will post the pics at the weekend. Comparing my new ones with that casted fake i can only wonder why i got screwed :wacko:  The differences are really much when you know what to look for.

 

I will too make some better pics ..... my new original against the casted one.

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I made some new shots with my new set and with the casted piece.

Hope it´s good to the that the differences are not very small. Only having such a set in hand it´s hard to find out which one is casted.....especially when the casted piece would have been nicely silvered. Ususally the silvering is gone/missing and that is a good indicator to be careful and to have a closer look.

 

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The revers pic is a bit out of focus  :whistling:

But you can see the difference on the outlines very well....and the bad swords....

 

 

 

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Very well presented ... I must agree that - if novice - it would be very difficult to choose copy from original.

The front side is finished to a very high standard on the copy, luckily its the back which makes all the difference to distinguish it.

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Watch out for this one .... a re-frosted cast-copy of 57er OLS ... forget the dull look, they went for bling-bling on this fake !!!

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Gentlemen, however, not to put a fly in the ointment, there new discussion a foot, that is now saying that St u L did make cast devices using silicon moulds in the 1990's ! and that they were silver devices and marked as such at that  :pinch:

 Prost ! Steve.

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It must have been late in the 1990s that they offered cast pieces. I used to buy direct from them - the last time I bought from them in the early 1990s, there was no mention of cast Oaks and Oaks/Swords on  their lists and the silver pieces I got were definitely die struck. By then however, even as die struck pieces, both the real silver and silvered brass pieces were of very mediocre quality and not really worthy having.

 

I would find it hard to believe that any of the high quality cast examples shown in this thread were made by S&L - just out and out fakes.

 

For me the likelihood is  - very high quality cast = fake

                                         very poor quality cast = possible late 1990s S&L.

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