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PRI Not an issue badge.Not a fake either.

Maker marked FIRMIN.

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Gentlemen,

Below are photos of a Manchester Regiment cap badge I purchased a year or two ago.  It was described as WW1 period, but I'm concerned that it may not be.

Please let me know your opinions.

Best Regards,
Ben

Manchester_Regiment_Cap_01.jpg  Manchester_Regiment_Cap_02.jpg

 

Edited 11 March 2016: Added external links to photos.

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Your cap badge is not ww1 it is a pre 1903 badge and original.

It appears to be all brass but it is not ,it is bi metal and Victorian/Edwardian pre 1903.

Well done but its a bit grubby.

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I'm quite cetain that this one is a restrike Jerry.

 

I wish i could see a known original to compare it with.

 

Cheers,Martin.

This badge is very easy to spot on being fake.

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The badge on the right is a fake. These are often encountered purporting to be Hertfordshire Yeomanry, or Hertfordshire and Bedfordshire Yeomanry.

The Badge on the left is a much better strike. So if genuine what is it ?

The badge worn by the Herts and Beds Yeo was in this pattern but was gold a/a. Introduced in 1961 well into the a/a era. 

Some say it is Berkhampstead school. The only evidence for this is a line drawing in an old book [cant remember the title] The school did wear a heart crossing a ford [ a VB Bedfs Regt collar badge] So this could be a mix up, or maybe the school wore this badge at a later date.

The badge resembles the silver plated officers bade introduced in 1943. But photos of the ww2 era show o/r's wearing the old style badge. So not that.

Could these have been manufactured post ww2 for the Herts Yeo ? To match the officers badge and worn until the change of badge in 1953.

I would like to say all brass [g/m] badges in this style are 'wrong' . But the quality of the badge on the left has made me doubt this. If anyone has any definitive information I would be very grateful as I have been pondering this for 25 years now !

There is quite a bit on this subject on another Forum, but nothing definitive.

Graham 

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Just realised I have got the badges mixed up in my photos.

 

The 'better' badge is on the left in the first pic

and on the right in the pic of the reverse.

 

Confused ?

 

Graham

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A bit of a conundrum Graham.

At least it does not have the Gaunt Birmingham mark which would make it a 70's collectors version such as for this Mons School example I have, though it has been suggested that they might have been purchased privately to meet demand.  I show it with the correct Timmings AA version.  The badge was originally designed for 2nd Mons but they were disbanded before they were ever issued and were used by the School ACF instead.

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In a way I wish it was marked Gaunt Birmingham, then I could chuck it in the repro/fake box and be done with it.

I am pretty sure most badges of this pattern are rubbish. But still have this nagging doubt that there may be a legitimate reason for this one to exist.

 

Graham

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It has been suggested on another forum that the badge on the left was a trial pattern [not taken into use] for the gold anodised aluminium badge used between 1961-1967.

 

The one on the right is still 'orrible'.

 

Graham.  

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WWI Welsh Horse.  At one time I would have said this was a one looker good example as it has none of the tells of what you used to look for on a fake but recent copies seem to have removed the most obvious tells, ie the lack of infilling in the H, this has the infilling of the H so on that score it should be good.

Probably really needs someone who knows these to comment.

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Jerry imo its wrong.

The slider and srike.

Stick to extruded on this one mate to be 100% sure.

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Jerry imo its wrong.

The slider and srike.

Stick to extruded on this one mate to be 100% sure.

Dave, I was 95% certain it was wrong.  I always appreciate you taking the time to offer you valued opinion, thanks.

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Hi guys,

this was given to my dad but I have a hunch that it is probably not a good one ??

 

Regards,Martin.

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These are somewhat notorious in that there are a lot of fakes. So you are right to be suspicious. I think it is a fake as the letters on the title scroll are the wrong size and the antelope should show some signs of fur. Also the coronet around the animals neck is misshapen. There may be other 'tells' but that is what sticks out to me. 

Graham   

 

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When the Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire Regiment amalgamated with the Essex Regiment in 1958 to form the 3rd East Anglian Regt of the East Anglian Brigade their territorial Battalion [5th Battn] was renamed the 5th Battalion The Bedfordshire Regiment. This badge was adopted. KK gives the sealed date for this badge as 1st Jan 1960.  In 1961 The 5th Battn The Bedfs Regt was amalgamated with the 1st Battn The Hertfordshire Regt. To form a 'new' Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire Regt.

This is a long winded way of saying this badge was only worn c1958-1961.

From what I can gather the trade mark was changed from LONDON TO B'HAM in the early 1970's so my assumption is the badge marked JR GAUNT B'HAM must be a fake/repro.

Graham.

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You  badge  guys have  some  excellent knowledge on  these pieces. It is  so  refreshing  to  have  good honest  opinions on  these badges. Just  tips like  the  ones Graham  mentioned on  Martin`s badge bring home just  how  complicated  collecting  these  badges  can  be. 

Thanks  guys,  I  learn  lots  from  you

Jim

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To the best of my knowledge the idea with WW1 economy badges was to save labour costs involved soldering bi/metal badges together. This all g/m 1st Kings Dragoon Guards looks a nice badge but is soldered together from two parts so by that logic I think this must be fake. But it would be nice to be proved wrong.

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21 minutes ago, Graham said:

To the best of my knowledge the idea with WW1 economy badges was to save labour costs involved soldering bi/metal badges together. This all g/m 1st Kings Dragoon Guards looks a nice badge but is soldered together from two parts so by that logic I think this must be fake. But it would be nice to be proved wrong.

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As you state Graham, the idea was to simplify and speed up production and to save materials, sop by those criterion it fails....but as for the badge itself I cannot say not being familiar with badges for this unit.

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On 12/11/2016 at 11:16 PM, Graham said:

When the Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire Regiment amalgamated with the Essex Regiment in 1958 to form the 3rd East Anglian Regt of the East Anglian Brigade their territorial Battalion [5th Battn] was renamed the 5th Battalion The Bedfordshire Regiment. This badge was adopted. KK gives the sealed date for this badge as 1st Jan 1960.  In 1961 The 5th Battn The Bedfs Regt was amalgamated with the 1st Battn The Hertfordshire Regt. To form a 'new' Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire Regt.

This is a long winded way of saying this badge was only worn c1958-1961.

From what I can gather the trade mark was changed from LONDON TO B'HAM in the early 1970's so my assumption is the badge marked JR GAUNT B'HAM must be a fake/repro.

Graham.

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After some searching and advice it now seems current thinking is the B'HAM mark was used back into the mid 1960's. This badge may well have been worn by cadets a few years after the 58 to 61 time period making it conceivable the JR GAUNT B'HAM marked badge was struck for ACF, CCF use.

Graham.  

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