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Ribbon Bars with EK2 Spange (Miniature)

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7-place with a number of foreign awards.

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10-place to a Generalleutnant.

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Hi Alberto,

Here is a close-up of the label.

The 5th ribbon is for the Croatian Order of King Zvonimir.

Best
Pierce

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EK2 spange.

 

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Pierce, don't you find it at least odd that these bars (posted here #18 and #30 didn't render any more comments, other than the usual "nice stuff" and "thanks for showing".

 

cheers

Peter

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Hi Peter,

 

The bar in post 18 is 100% good in my opinion. As an aside, I have given it an in hand inspection as it is actually in my collection.

 

On reflection, a year later, the bars in post 30 are questionable, in particular the 7-place. I recently come across some bars I would deem fake, with a similar type of catch.

 

I would require a better photo of the Spange on the 4-place before commenting further.

 

Please do post what you have to add, and your thoughts on all 3 bars.

 

Kind regards

Pierce

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Hi Pierce,

 

I've never been able to wrap my head around this 1.class device on a ribbon bar. A ribbon bar (Feldspange) was intended for wear on a uniform and a 1.class EK was worn on the breast (single or in conjunction with a WHS). In order to find a logical answer, one needs to compare these devices (both 1st and 2nd class) with the regulations and wear of the two classes of both EK 1914 and EK 1939.

 

I think we both can agree that a single EK, represented either as 9mm EK stickpin or as a similar EK-device on a ribbon bar, should be viewed as a 2nd class and that this was valid for both the 1914 and 1939 versions. As for the 1939 version, a regulation published by Schickle in 1941 clearly forbids the use of the 2nd class EK 1939 device on ribbon bars. The 1st class WHS device or 1st clas EK 1939 are not mentioned and if it was common practise to use them on ribbon bars, I'm sure this device also would have been included in this regulation. The only loop-hole that could be used for explaining this device can be found in the regulation of accepted devices from the same publication i.e. Eisernes Kreuz 1914 (bei Wiederhohlung Auflage Wiederhohlungsspange). However, the fact that the actual class is not mentioned isn't that important IMO.

 

To collect ribbon bars is a tricky business and to authenticate them even more difficult. These ribbon bars can easily be faked, hence one's opinion is more than often based on subjective premises. With that said, I'm not prepared to give an opinion based on images, but perhaps we can initiate a discussion based on logical assumptions.

 

cheers

Peter

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Hi Peter,
 
There is no first class device represented on a ribbon bar. A 1939 Spange device, regardless of size, on a 1914 EK2 ribbon on a ribbon bar, will always represent the second awarding of the Iron Cross 2nd Class, not the first class. The same applies to the larger EK2 Spanges some wore at the second button hole on the uniform. 

 

The first class was always represented on the uniform, worn above the 1914 EK1.
 
Are you able to post this article from the Schickle catalogue? That the device was forbidden is news to me and really I find it hard to believe, given the many examples of ribbon bars with EK2 Spanges out there, not to mention those seen in period photos, clearly showing the Spange being worn on the ribbon bar.

Kind regards
Pierce

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Hi Pierce,

 

Great to get some feedback :smile: I understand my attempt to explain this matter can be difficult to digest, especially without the regulation at hand, hence I've enclosed the two pages. 

 

Like you say, the size of the WHS has no relevance, BUT, the design definitely does IMO. I've enclosed images of the items in the order they are mentioned in my previous post. Before we elaborate any farther, would you agree that we're discussing two diffent classes of WHS (Wiederhohlungsspange)?

 

cheers

Peter

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Peter,

 

Thanks for posting this. I'll digest this later.

 

All I can say is those 1939 Spange devices for ribbon bars always represent the 2nd Class- never the 1st Class. The first class was never represented on a ribbon bar.

 

Now the single bar you post above, with the 1914 "Iron Cross" device- this was apparently a Saxon tradition, and really is superfluous. I don't think collectors know for sure if it was made to represent the first class or not, but the general consensus is that it is just the second class with a device to represent the second class- as I say superfluous. It would be interesting to see what a period catalogue would say about this- but I have not seen one to comment further.

 

Regarding the buttonhole 1939 "Iron Cross" device- now these I believe were only made for a very short period of time and are very rarely found on ribbon bars. Here are two such examples. Again, like the 1914 device, it's not known if it represented a first class or just something to add to the second class (the Germans LOVED adding devices to their ribbon bars). These devices were discontinued. Perhaps this is what you were initially referring to?

 

The stickpins I cannot comment on as I do not collect these- perhaps there is some differentiation there regarding class versus size.

 

Kind regards

Pierce

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Pierce, I brought the 1914 EK's into the equation in order to get a greater perspective and I'm also aware of the suggestion that the Ek devices was a Saxon tradition (and superfluous). Either way, the following scan from Beco's sales catalogue (1938 or later) illustrates the presence of a single EK 1914 device, as well as a double dito. The signification of these two devices shouldn't be too difficult to comprehend i.e. as you suggested, a single device is a 2nd class.

 

As for.the single 1939 EK device we are in agreement, they were produced and used prior to the ban in 1941. Using the same logic as the 1914 version, I'd say it's most likely a 2nd class (I've never encountered a double 1939 EK device).

 

This discussion was initially about the WHS. We once again agree, there wasn't supposed to be any 1st class WHS on ribbon bars. It doesn't take a stickpin collector to realize the 1st and 2nd class WHS doesn't only differ in measurement ratio, but also in distinct design. Are you following me so far?

 

cheers

Peter

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Hi Peter,

I am enjoying the discussion and from what I can see we are both agreeing on many points here- so I am left asking what exactly is your question regarding the WHS?

Is it about the design? If so, as I've said, I believe that has no relevance when it comes to ribbon bar devices (which is what this topic is about).

Kind regards

Pierce

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Pierce, the feeling is mutual :smile: I'm off for bed and will send you a pm tomorrow, of course also elaborate farther in this thread. In the mean time, perhaps some of our other esteemed members would like to share their thoughts.

 

cheers

Peter

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On 9/23/2014 at 9:27 PM, Pierce F. said:

10-place to a Generalleutnant.

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Generalleutnant Max Lindig? 

A ribbon bar from my collection:

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